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	<title>Comments on: Larry Richards&#8217; Statement of Interest</title>
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	<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010</link>
	<description>July 30th to August 2nd 2010 (with surrounding events)</description>
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		<title>By: laudrich</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator>laudrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 03:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-173</guid>
		<description>Wow, Claudia. Thanks, and yes, we can&#039;t avoid the language. We live in language, and what it is at the moment gives us that with which we have to work.

Rather than definitions, I think of my declarations as how I use the words. A way to read them might be: I use the word......when I wish to speak of............ And, I can change! They are a temporary attempt to be clear.

When I use the word love, I like to be clear about the domain from which I am speaking. When I speak from the biological domain, I take love as given. It is inherent from birth in all mammals and is therefore a need. As humans become social beings, obstructions to the natural inclination for recurrent interaction emerge in the language. Suffocation, power, and dominance arise in a current language whose logic generates rigid and reward-oriented hierarchies. When I look at the history of human social relations from this domain, I find it is easy to become cynical.

When I speak of human experience from a non-biological domain (say, social), I cannot assume love; it requires some attention and anticipation. It gets enacted when we treat the desires of the other as though they were needs. I like to imagine a world where the obstacles to the natural inclination for recurrent interaction no longer exist; I don&#039;t live in that world now, so a society in which love is pervasive becomes a desire. In order to live as though this was the case, I avoid distinctions between good and evil, right or wrong--only the desirable and undesirable; and, I claim rigid and reward-oriented hierarchies not to be desirable. Dostoyevsky&#039;s poetry offers a temporary reprise.

The forms of interaction we have with infants is different from what we have with our friends which is different from what we have with our partners. The forms of interaction that humans have is different from that of other mammals, as humans interact with awareness in language. I use the word love when I wish to speak of a preference for recurrent interaction with the other in all these cases. As this use of the word in different domains creates problems of mixing/confusing logical types, I tend to reserve use of it for special occasions where the logic won&#039;t interfere.

Of course, a composer can have hierarchical intentions--for example, the compositions commissioned for a dictator. However, by playing with language and dynamics and the dynamics of language, a composer with non-hierarchical intentions can disrupt the status quo, rock the boat, stir the pot. In doing so, a composition holds the hope of new alternatives, opportunities for new language. If we cannot eliminate hierarchical thinking in the current language, maybe we can make it fleeting or floating--undesirable, therefore as temporary as possible.

Need: a want that once satisfied will again become a want

Desire: a want that once satisfied will no longer be wanted
Desires:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Claudia. Thanks, and yes, we can&#8217;t avoid the language. We live in language, and what it is at the moment gives us that with which we have to work.</p>
<p>Rather than definitions, I think of my declarations as how I use the words. A way to read them might be: I use the word&#8230;&#8230;when I wish to speak of&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; And, I can change! They are a temporary attempt to be clear.</p>
<p>When I use the word love, I like to be clear about the domain from which I am speaking. When I speak from the biological domain, I take love as given. It is inherent from birth in all mammals and is therefore a need. As humans become social beings, obstructions to the natural inclination for recurrent interaction emerge in the language. Suffocation, power, and dominance arise in a current language whose logic generates rigid and reward-oriented hierarchies. When I look at the history of human social relations from this domain, I find it is easy to become cynical.</p>
<p>When I speak of human experience from a non-biological domain (say, social), I cannot assume love; it requires some attention and anticipation. It gets enacted when we treat the desires of the other as though they were needs. I like to imagine a world where the obstacles to the natural inclination for recurrent interaction no longer exist; I don&#8217;t live in that world now, so a society in which love is pervasive becomes a desire. In order to live as though this was the case, I avoid distinctions between good and evil, right or wrong&#8211;only the desirable and undesirable; and, I claim rigid and reward-oriented hierarchies not to be desirable. Dostoyevsky&#8217;s poetry offers a temporary reprise.</p>
<p>The forms of interaction we have with infants is different from what we have with our friends which is different from what we have with our partners. The forms of interaction that humans have is different from that of other mammals, as humans interact with awareness in language. I use the word love when I wish to speak of a preference for recurrent interaction with the other in all these cases. As this use of the word in different domains creates problems of mixing/confusing logical types, I tend to reserve use of it for special occasions where the logic won&#8217;t interfere.</p>
<p>Of course, a composer can have hierarchical intentions&#8211;for example, the compositions commissioned for a dictator. However, by playing with language and dynamics and the dynamics of language, a composer with non-hierarchical intentions can disrupt the status quo, rock the boat, stir the pot. In doing so, a composition holds the hope of new alternatives, opportunities for new language. If we cannot eliminate hierarchical thinking in the current language, maybe we can make it fleeting or floating&#8211;undesirable, therefore as temporary as possible.</p>
<p>Need: a want that once satisfied will again become a want</p>
<p>Desire: a want that once satisfied will no longer be wanted<br />
Desires:</p>
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		<title>By: cezaic</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>cezaic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-172</guid>
		<description>interesting:

would you define the kind of love that exists in parents for their children in the same way you did above? 

My guess is, one would want to avoid that the one one loves &quot;suffocates&quot;, and isn&#039;t their a principle intrinsic to love which prevents the &quot;suffocation&quot;?
or does responsibility needs to reside besides love to prevent suffocation

I give you the main source of my thought below. It is the potential (and I suspect it might be) intrinsic to a (certain) concept of love to break the spiral of dominance which interests me. There is a famous passage in which Dostoyevsky stages Christ against the Grand Inquisitor, which might explain better, what I refer to:

&quot;But He suddenly approached the old man in silence and softly kissed him ... That was all his answer.&quot;
(Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov,  book V: Pro and Contra, Chapter 5: The Grand Inquisitor, New York: Plain Label Books, 2002, p. 676.)

However, love falls out of the desire category, I guess, yes.

Would you agree that the notion: &#039;I want to be good (in contrast to evil)&#039; is a desire, and if so one that is probably known by most humans as basic to their (spiritual) survival?
And then, would you agree that most people act on the basis of &#039;good intentions&#039;? I look into the world and cannot help but thinking that there are for example wars started and continued etc.. on the basis of good intentions and a notion of responsibility. &#039;Good intentions&#039; do not seem to prevent destruction.

I guess, your &#039;to compose&#039; might be not very far from a definition that Hannah Arendt has made for &#039;to speak&#039;. 
Can there be commanding compositions?
I would not want a world without composition or responsibility either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting:</p>
<p>would you define the kind of love that exists in parents for their children in the same way you did above? </p>
<p>My guess is, one would want to avoid that the one one loves &#8220;suffocates&#8221;, and isn&#8217;t their a principle intrinsic to love which prevents the &#8220;suffocation&#8221;?<br />
or does responsibility needs to reside besides love to prevent suffocation</p>
<p>I give you the main source of my thought below. It is the potential (and I suspect it might be) intrinsic to a (certain) concept of love to break the spiral of dominance which interests me. There is a famous passage in which Dostoyevsky stages Christ against the Grand Inquisitor, which might explain better, what I refer to:</p>
<p>&#8220;But He suddenly approached the old man in silence and softly kissed him &#8230; That was all his answer.&#8221;<br />
(Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov,  book V: Pro and Contra, Chapter 5: The Grand Inquisitor, New York: Plain Label Books, 2002, p. 676.)</p>
<p>However, love falls out of the desire category, I guess, yes.</p>
<p>Would you agree that the notion: &#8216;I want to be good (in contrast to evil)&#8217; is a desire, and if so one that is probably known by most humans as basic to their (spiritual) survival?<br />
And then, would you agree that most people act on the basis of &#8216;good intentions&#8217;? I look into the world and cannot help but thinking that there are for example wars started and continued etc.. on the basis of good intentions and a notion of responsibility. &#8216;Good intentions&#8217; do not seem to prevent destruction.</p>
<p>I guess, your &#8216;to compose&#8217; might be not very far from a definition that Hannah Arendt has made for &#8216;to speak&#8217;.<br />
Can there be commanding compositions?<br />
I would not want a world without composition or responsibility either.</p>
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		<title>By: laudrich</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>laudrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 03:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-170</guid>
		<description>For desires to avoid cynicism, they must connect to the desires of the other. When this happens, the desirable will emerge. 

A is better off when B is better off AND B is better off when A is better off. (a desire with desirable intentions)

Let&#039;s live as if....[insert our desires]....

Love: a preference for recurrent interaction with the other.

Responsibility: awareness of our desires with respect to the consequences of our actions. (if so, responsibility involves intention)

Composition: that which would not happen without the composer and the composer&#039;s intentions. 

I don&#039;t think I would want a world without responsibility or composition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For desires to avoid cynicism, they must connect to the desires of the other. When this happens, the desirable will emerge. </p>
<p>A is better off when B is better off AND B is better off when A is better off. (a desire with desirable intentions)</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s live as if&#8230;.[insert our desires]&#8230;.</p>
<p>Love: a preference for recurrent interaction with the other.</p>
<p>Responsibility: awareness of our desires with respect to the consequences of our actions. (if so, responsibility involves intention)</p>
<p>Composition: that which would not happen without the composer and the composer&#8217;s intentions. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I would want a world without responsibility or composition.</p>
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		<title>By: judy</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-169</link>
		<dc:creator>judy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-169</guid>
		<description>Desires, abstractions, intentions - actions relevant to my desires?

Expectations require two - any role does. 

Desires one, desirable more than one?  If yes:

Desires are cynical because there is no connection to the other?

Desirables are NOT cynical because there is a connection, a synchronicity of will?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Desires, abstractions, intentions &#8211; actions relevant to my desires?</p>
<p>Expectations require two &#8211; any role does. </p>
<p>Desires one, desirable more than one?  If yes:</p>
<p>Desires are cynical because there is no connection to the other?</p>
<p>Desirables are NOT cynical because there is a connection, a synchronicity of will?</p>
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		<title>By: cezaic</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>cezaic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-168</guid>
		<description>P.S. and suddenly it appears to me as if the world was better off if there were desires only, and no intentions</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. and suddenly it appears to me as if the world was better off if there were desires only, and no intentions</p>
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		<title>By: cezaic</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>cezaic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jul 2010 12:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-167</guid>
		<description>Reading this, I was trying to explain to me the desire - intention relationship, and this came to my mind:
I want to love the whole world.
I want to love you.

Consider the second sentence as stating an intention that arises from the awareness of the desire mentioned in the first. Possible? Desirable? 
(am not saying that the issue appears clear to me now -- I think, perhaps I created a problem now that is maybe not helpful at all)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading this, I was trying to explain to me the desire &#8211; intention relationship, and this came to my mind:<br />
I want to love the whole world.<br />
I want to love you.</p>
<p>Consider the second sentence as stating an intention that arises from the awareness of the desire mentioned in the first. Possible? Desirable?<br />
(am not saying that the issue appears clear to me now &#8212; I think, perhaps I created a problem now that is maybe not helpful at all)</p>
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		<title>By: laudrich</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>laudrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jul 2010 01:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-165</guid>
		<description>Intentions arise from awareness of desires, a want of consequences not currently the case. I prefer expectations that are desired, and beyond desired, desirable, although admit to having some, sometimes, that are not necessarily desirable (the cynic in me). I try to resist cynicism, but sometimes slip. I like to think that an important role (expectation) of the public intellectual is to offer alternatives, to create choice, in the struggle against cynicism (and its partner, fear). Having desires is not being cynical; it is being human.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intentions arise from awareness of desires, a want of consequences not currently the case. I prefer expectations that are desired, and beyond desired, desirable, although admit to having some, sometimes, that are not necessarily desirable (the cynic in me). I try to resist cynicism, but sometimes slip. I like to think that an important role (expectation) of the public intellectual is to offer alternatives, to create choice, in the struggle against cynicism (and its partner, fear). Having desires is not being cynical; it is being human.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: judy</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-164</link>
		<dc:creator>judy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-164</guid>
		<description>Larry, Good answer I hear a distinction worth making. Yet I assumed desires are intentional.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry, Good answer I hear a distinction worth making. Yet I assumed desires are intentional.</p>
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		<title>By: Alpal</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>Alpal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 07:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-163</guid>
		<description>This thread intrigues me too. I look forward to meeting with whoever comes not with any expectations or desires. Rather with delicious anticipations...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This thread intrigues me too. I look forward to meeting with whoever comes not with any expectations or desires. Rather with delicious anticipations&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: laudrich</title>
		<link>https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155&#038;cpage=1#comment-153</link>
		<dc:creator>laudrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://past.asc-cybernetics.org/2010/?page_id=1155#comment-153</guid>
		<description>Good question, Judy. Both expectations and desires imply a situation other than the current one. Expectations are anticipations of impending outcomes or conditions that may or may not be desired. Desires are outcomes or conditions that may or may not be anticipated or impending, but that, if realized, would be welcomed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question, Judy. Both expectations and desires imply a situation other than the current one. Expectations are anticipations of impending outcomes or conditions that may or may not be desired. Desires are outcomes or conditions that may or may not be anticipated or impending, but that, if realized, would be welcomed.</p>
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